Taking the Leap: Embracing Growth, Impact, and Stability in the Pursuit of Success | The Fifth Hammer Growth Podcast - EP 2
In today's episode, titled "Taking the Leap: Embracing Growth, Impact, and Stability in the Pursuit of Success," we dive deep into our personal and professional journeys and share experiences of chasing dreams, evaluating opportunities, and making life-altering decisions. From turning down offers to finding the right opportunity at the right time, we walk through the framework we developed for assessing growth, impact, salary, and stability.
Join us as we explore Ryan's transition from being a coder to an executive, the importance of passive income, and the pursuit of true wealth. We also delve into the connections, mentors, and divine moments that led them us to where we are today. So, grab a cup of coffee, get comfortable, and let's dive into this inspiring episode of The Fifth Hammer Growth Podcast!
Transcript
We're excited you're with us today. Today you're going to get a glimpse into who Ryan, Dave and Spencer are, what our journeys that led us to micro formulas. And you'll find some really unique frameworks for thinking on how to answer the inner call that you may have experienced before or will in the future. To do more, to play bigger and when. To maybe recognize that it's a time to say no, or it's a time to say maybe later. Or it's the time to say yes right now. So we're excited to share a little bit more about who we are and hopefully help give you some mental models and frameworks and inspiration that will lead you on your journey. You are listening to the Fifth Hammer Growth podcast, where we help you find harmony and imperfection as you journey towards success in life and in business.
Spencer Matthews [:About how we all helped a tiny startup scale at lightning speed and navigate to and through a 200 million dollar private equity buyout. And I say begin. I say start because there's so many experiences and moments and stories that led up to that and that experience over a five year span. But before we dive in there and we start, I want to start with us and share a moment of time, a decision point before microbe that if we hadn't have had that experience or made that decision, we probably would have never been on the path for microbe even to enter into our lives. So I want to start there, and then we'll kind of move forward. But Ryan, why don't you kick us off?
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Ryan Riley [:So my background is I'm a full on geek. I mean, when it comes down to it, my whole life has been in a browser, and that includes coding. I mean, I've coded in perl. I've coded in, like, old school Pascal, basic perl. I've coded in JavaScript, c Sharp, I've done python, I've done. Really, any Java, any language that has been applied to the Internet, I've coded in there. And I remember specifically, I was probably about 35, and I started looking at what does life look like for me? And it was right after my fourth boy was born, right after Dallin was born. And I started sitting here saying, man, do I want to code for the.
Dave Huffman [:Rest of my life?
Ryan Riley [:And I realized I didn't I didn't want to be 50 years old in coding. I mean, I still code today because I love it, right? But I didn't want that to be the end of who I was. And I think it came down to a conversation that I had with a mentor. And I've shared this before, and I'll probably share it many times. And he talked about how true wealth is when you can have your passive income, pay for your active time. And he looked at me, said, Ryan, right now you're trading time for money. I mean, as a coder. That's all I do. And the only way I can increase my wealth is by charging more for my time because I can't get any more time. There's no way for me to get more time. Right? So it really came down and it started me thinking about what's my career path? Where am I going to go? And it took me on this journey personally about setting myself up to make the jump from a developer to an executive, because I knew if I could go there, then I could go into the true wealth comes when you're building something on your own, right? That moment in time was really the decision that I made that I needed to make a change. And that change set me up for this journey of prayer and meditation and what's my next gig? When I was ready for it? What is my next gig? What am I going to do that's going to provide the type of life and retirement that I want? Because let's be honest, my generation is the first generation that pensions don't really come into play. Like, my generation, our generation is that I was born in 73. I'm 50 years old this year. And that's scary when you're looking down the barrel of retirement and you don't have a substantial savings in your bank account that will be able to carry you through. I mean, I used to joke that.
Dave Huffman [:I'm going to go be a greeter.
Ryan Riley [:At Walmart because that's really where my life was going to go to at that point. And that conversation I had was so impactful because it was like, okay, so.
Spencer Matthews [:How do I do that?
Ryan Riley [:Where do I go with that?
Spencer Matthews [:Allowed you to start thinking.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah, and it helped me start thinking bigger.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Ryan Riley [:But I knew I couldn't do it on my own, so I knew I had to find something that would allow me to do that. Like I said, it was this journey of meditation and prayer and opportunity and trial and error and driving to the point when I was ready for this opportunity to come. Because I don't think if I had that conversation, if I would have had that mindset of change, I would not have been ready for the experience I had when I sat down and had the conversation with Todd.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah, I love that.
Spencer Matthews [:Yeah. You identified a change and allowed you to be open to a transformation.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah, absolutely. And I think you have to be in life, you have to be open to those transformations, because if you're not and here's something, it's interesting, because developers coders will code themselves into a corner. You've heard that adage of painting yourself in a corner if you're painting a floor and all of a sudden you get to the point where you've painted the entire floor and now you're standing in the corner, how do you get out?
Dave Huffman [:Right?
Ryan Riley [:And developers code themselves into corners because they get comfortable in their environment and they know the systems they're working on that they really haven't ever looked up to see what else is around. And they code themselves into that corner where when something happens to that position, they're like, where do I go now?
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Ryan Riley [:And so I was fortunate enough that I had a couple of life experiences that allowed me to open myself up to that transformation.
Spencer Matthews [:Sometimes it takes a mentor, a conversation, right. Somebody else to help.
Ryan Riley [:Absolutely.
Spencer Matthews [:Yeah, for sure. Dave, do you have one?
Dave Huffman [: shows, we would sell out like: Spencer Matthews [:So I'm kind of hearing a few moments in time, right, and a thread through this a little bit is the call to do more psych. You had the call to do more music. You made the decision. I want to spend more time with my family. And without that, you wouldn't have tried to make it work as a marketer. Right, and then as you made it work as a marketer, you again felt the call to play bigger. And those are kind of like a few critical moments, but that call to.
Ryan Riley [:Do more is the important part because it comes and I think that call to do more, that call to play.
Dave Huffman [:Bigger comes to everybody. Right?
Ryan Riley [:But do you have the courage to take it?
Spencer Matthews [:Man, it's scary.
Ryan Riley [:It is scary.
Dave Huffman [:Okay. But even to end the story, when we were introduced, it was because you needed a media buyer, right? It wasn't because you needed a VP of marketing. You needed, like, this executive level marketer that I thought I was going for at the time. Right. As we talked, I recognized the opportunity to do more there. Right. And even then, it took me the reason why I turned it down. We laughed about how I turned the job down three times because I wasn't.
Ryan Riley [:Sure if the path was really there.
Dave Huffman [:If that's really what I wanted to do. And then to your guys'point recognizing the opportunity and the path to do more there ultimately is why I and having.
Ryan Riley [:The courage to take it.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah, absolutely.
Spencer Matthews [:Yeah. For me, I've thought there's a lot of kind of moments in time or decisions, but one I do want to share. I grew up much like you, just service based, hardworking family roofing, plumbing, landscaping, hardwood floors, and I didn't know anything else. And I was working in roofing at the time and making $10 an hour as a 21 year old. And I had my resume in with a temp agency, and I got a call one day. They said, hey, there's this company that's looking for Portuguese speaking customer service reps. They want to open Portuguese to their customer service offering. They're looking for Portuguese speakers. Well, I had just done two years in Brazil and learned Portuguese, and it's like, oh, this would be really cool. Like, in Idaho, there's not really many, you know, it's English and then Spanish. And so any opportunity to use Portuguese, I was like, this is really interesting. I was like, yeah, please submit my resume. I'd love to look at that opportunity. And so I got in and I got an interview and had a few rounds of interviews and came down and I got an offer, and it was me and a Brazilian woman to be hired as the first two ever Portuguese speaking people in this company. And we were going to be doing phone support in Portuguese, in English, but the translation stuff, and the offer was $11 an hour. And I was like, oh, man, it's a whole dollar more. And it was one of the hardest decisions of my life, because the person that I was working for that owned the roofing company, when I applied to his job. I said, I just need to make $9 an hour. And he's like, I'll pay you ten. That's the first time that's ever happened to me of someone, like, recognizing my worth or value maybe more than I did my own, and paying me more than I even asked for. I was really loyal to him, and I really appreciated the opportunity that he gave me. But I ultimately decided to go work for this company at $11 an hour as a Portuguese speaking customer service rep. And if I had not done that, I don't know, I'm sure I would at some point have maybe left the service world and other things. I was doing my undergrad in international business and in marketing, but if I hadn't worked at that company and been at that company for five years, I wouldn't have had microbe ever cross my path. I know for sure.
Dave Huffman [:That's wild.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah, it's interesting. It comes back again to having the courage to take the opportunity.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah. Right.
Ryan Riley [:A good friend of mine, he grew up working in pizza. His first job was for Chicago connection here in Boise, and he started as a pizza guy.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Ryan Riley [:And he worked his way up 25 years to the point where he was the right hand man of the owner, and he was managing all 13 locations. But that wasn't his love. His love was being a flipper and buying gold and selling gold and silver and going to yard sales and finding deals. And the day I met him, he told me of this dream he had about starting his own pawn shop or doing something for himself and quitting the pizza. And I was like, then do it for ten years. For ten years, he talked about doing this, and he finally made the choice, and he is happier now than he's ever been. But sometimes it's just having the courage to take that. Now people think I might be brave. I might also be stupid, because that concept of having the courage to do it never comes into my mind. I'm so add that I'm like, squirrel the better opportunity. Let's go. And the fact that I actually worked at microbe for, like, five years, that's huge.
Spencer Matthews [:Well, and this brings up an interesting point. Derek sivers talks about this in his book, hell yeah. Or know, and he talks there was a point in his time where he was working with a mentor, saying, I really want to go do this thing. Kind of like your buddy. I want to go do this thing. He's like, dude, you've been talking about going and doing this thing for three years. You do not want to. If you did, you would be doing it. And he said and he just talks about how our actions actually show what we truly value over what our words do. That's something we all have to learn, and that's something that we all have to recognize that we may say we want something. We may think we want something, but until our actions prove that we do, we don't.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah. And either we're too afraid to chase it or go for it, or we really just don't. Like I talk about right.
Spencer Matthews [:And sometimes you just have to let go and say, like, you know what? I actually don't really want that. I'm just going to forget about that and stop saying that I actually do.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah. I talk about all the time. One of my favorite things to do is write. When I ask people what's something I'm really good at, people will say, A writer. People have said I should write a book. I used to write all the time. I want to write again. But I've been saying that for, like, seven years, and I haven't published a damn thing. And I keep telling myself it's because obviously I don't want to do it bad enough, or I would sit down and do it. The furthest I get is I'll open a document and I'll spit out a paragraph and I'll walk away from it.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah, but I appreciate that, but there are a lot of things that I want to do that I haven't done yet.
Spencer Matthews [:Sure.
Ryan Riley [:Right. Which doesn't mean that I don't really want to do them. So I also think that it's this concept of having the courage to do it, but also the right timing.
Dave Huffman [:Well, that's kind of what I'm timing.
Spencer Matthews [:Is freaking there's a dichotomy there.
Dave Huffman [:And what I mean to say is I kind of hit this space of thought where I'm like, I don't want to do it bad enough, but also, maybe it's just not the right time.
Ryan Riley [:Not the right time.
Dave Huffman [:I can't imagine I've got some regrets for how I showed up as a father in my 30s because of how I was chasing dreams, and now I can't imagine missing an opportunity with my son because there's something that I want to do. I've got three years left with him. He'll be gone in a few years, off doing his own thing, and I'll have all the time in the world. You're right.
Ryan Riley [:The timing piece, and it's interesting that you say that, because my whole thing was and you guys talked about your backgrounds growing up, both being from kind of blue collar service, and we've talked about in the past, my parents were both schoolteachers.
Dave Huffman [:Right?
Ryan Riley [:They were schoolteachers in the California teaching system, which meant their retirement was lockstock and barrel, man. They served missions for our church. They went to China, they served in Oklahoma at a university, and they were in Salt Lake City at the genealogy library. I mean, they served missions and did what they want to do the entire time in their retirement. My mom, to this day, after my dad has passed, she still gets all that retirement money. She doesn't have a dime to spend it on, but she's like, I've never had this much money in my but her retirement was so great, and I saw that, and that's when I was like, dang, I've got to do something different, because that's not my situation. When I was 48, I started looking at okay, what's? My ten year retirement plan. Because how great would it be to retire at 50?
Dave Huffman [:Right?
Ryan Riley [:And then Hattie was born when I was 41, and I was like, Dang, now I got a 20 year retirement plan. But it was that same concept of how do you take those opportunities that are going to come? And how do you prepare yourself to say yes to those opportunities?
Spencer Matthews [:Sometimes it's letting go. Sometimes it's saying it's not the right time. And sometimes it's saying, now is yes, now.
Ryan Riley [:Because since that was your situation with Microbe yeah, totally.
Spencer Matthews [:And let's jump there. So we've shared a little bit about some moments in time, some decisions of choice in the past. Let's share the stories now. Know, actually getting us into microformulas. And for know again If I hadn't worked at that company for five years, I would have never met Dr. Tod Watts. And I met him while I was still at that company. He came to me asking for some marketing advice around this weird new product he had. And he was showing me pictures and look at what it's doing for people. And I just didn't get it. I was like, this is weird, dude. It's not going to be successful on this channel, this marketing channel in the direct response kind of world that I came from. So I kind of passed it by a little bit for a good six months. But we stayed in touch and we had the conversation. I was working at a three PL at the time and working to be a partner in that business. And we thought that was kind of my moonshot like, oh, this is going to be good. I can get some equity in this business, and it'll be really good. Well, Dr. Tod comes to me and he's like, what do you think about being a CEO? Partnering with me and my other partner, Dr. J. Davidson, and coming into this company and really helping us run it? So I kind of had a choice. Do I stay at this three PL and work my way into partnership there? Or do I accept this opportunity and be a partner in this new company that's just starting out? Microformulas and I had just left a good job a year prior that was making close to six figures and had a team and doing things to join a startup for like a third of the salary to build a team, to build some systems and process and some infrastructure. And so I'd spent the last year grinding, making pennies, and I was like, do I really want to go do that again?
Dave Huffman [:Do.
Spencer Matthews [:I want to start over. I kind of was comfortable. Like, I built the team of people doing stuff. I saw a path there, and I was evaluating this decision. And I remember asking Dr. Tod, like, hey, well, when are you going to quit what you're doing now and come all in on this business, on the you know, him and Jay were both like, oh, never. Like, they were both running very successful seven figure virtual and brick and mortar practices, helping people heal. And this was a side gig. This was a hobby, right? And I was like, I don't want to do it alone. I don't want to start all over, so this isn't for me.
Dave Huffman [:And I said no.
Spencer Matthews [:And luckily, with me being at the Three PL, that wasn't my final opportunity to get involved with Microformulas, because Microformulas was a client of the Three PL that I worked at and through that developed a relationship with Ryan.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Ryan Riley [:And I love that story because.
Dave Huffman [:It.
Ryan Riley [:Ties to the concept of why we work so well together.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Ryan Riley [:We talk a lot about the Fifth Hammer concept, and, dude, you're solid four Hammers, right? I'm only one when it comes down to it, but it's the fact that your idea is, I didn't want to do this alone, but I was ready for that. I was to the point where I was in a really good job, making more money than I've ever made in my career. In fact, at some point, I even had the thought that I've priced myself out of the marketplace. I was making so much money at this company that I could not go anywhere and make the same thing. So I was stuck unless I found.
Spencer Matthews [:Something different.
Ryan Riley [:That'S challenging. You want to talk about taking an opportunity where you're taking less?
Spencer Matthews [:Sometimes we call that the golden handcuffs. It's hard to walk away.
Ryan Riley [:It's almost impossible to almost impossible to walk away. And not only that, but it got to the point in that company where they were almost keeping me there so their competitors wouldn't have me, right? Because it was a very tight niche market that we were in. We were doing back end systems and supporting back end systems for the direct selling industry. There were only, like, four companies that I could go to, and one of the competitors was an old CEO that I worked with, and he was a good friend of mine. So they were like, no, we're going to keep you here. And it also got to the point in that position where I had that team so dialed that I really wasn't doing much.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Ryan Riley [:I was managing a team, and I would fly out every once in a while to different clients, and I was working for them, but really, on a day to day basis, I wasn't doing a lot, which gave me the opportunity to go through this process of, what's my next gig? What am I going to be doing? Where am I at? And I was able to try a bunch of different things. And like I said, I peripherally considered this on a daily basis of what's going to be my next gig that's going to take me to a position that I could have the type of retirement that my parents had, because that was the goal. I wanted to serve in any manner that I could and travel the world with my wife and see things and help people and be a part of that. And I remember this one day I was fulfilling some ecclesiastical duties as part of our church, and I was kind of over the responsible for just working with the men and making sure that lessons were taught and people were good and things were in place. And on a weekly basis, we'd go do visits and go out and just be in people's homes and see what they're doing and being a part of their lives and seeing if there's any way we can help. And I remember this one week, we didn't have any appointments, my counselors didn't show up. It was a Thursday night. And I was like, Dude, I'm done. I took my shoes off. I'm like, I'm just going to relax right now. And I had this thought, and I believe it was divine. To this day, however you want to consider what your faith is or how you look at higher powers, I believe this thought that came to me was divine because it said, Go see Todd. And Todd just moved into our neighborhood. He just moved into our congregation. And I was like, dang, because I just took my shoes off, right? I was like, all right. So I went and I texted him, and I was like, hey, you home? Do you mind if I come over? And he's like, yeah. And I knew Tod's brother. Twin brother. I knew his sisters, I knew his family. It's a big family. He came, but I had a couple interactions with Todd, but I never really got to know him and his family. And so I was like, all right, I'll be right over. So I think I jumped on my skateboard and rode over to course you did. And we were sitting down on his couch in his family room, and his wife Lisa was doing dishes in the back and his kids were upstairs. And we were just talking a lot like we're talking now and getting to know him, what he was doing. And I looked at him and I said, tod, how can I help you? How can I serve you? And he looked at me, and to this day, I will never forget this moment. He looked at me and he said, I need a CEO. And I was like, lightning bolt struck. All of the prayers that I had for five years of what my next gig is hit me right there at that moment. And then he said, I have these supplements, and. I was like, damn, dude. Because you have to remember, I was supporting the direct selling industry. And the direct selling industry is built off of every lotion, potion and pill you can ever imagine. And I've seen so much of that that I was almost callous to yeah, jaded to that concept. And I literally rolled my eyes, and he's like, no, seriously. And he started to convince me of what he had. And I just started asking him questions. What platform are you on? What are you doing? Because he was really trying to build. He's like, I need somebody to help me with my website. And fortunately, he said the golden word. He said, I'm on shopify. And I've been looking at Shopify for like, almost when it came out, because this isn't a plug for Shopify when.
Dave Huffman [:You had clients on it.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah, I had clients on shopify. Their API is so open and you have so much flexibility that you could do a lot with it.
Spencer Matthews [:Now sponsored by shopify.
Ryan Riley [:I know, right? So he told me he was on Shopify. He's like, well, here, I'll send you a developer access so I can get access and just kind of look around and see what's there. And I looked at his website, and it was the ugliest freaking website I've ever seen in my life. The logo was was yeah, it was this big MF for microformulas. And it was like, guys, when you think of MF, what do you think of?
Dave Huffman [:Right?
Ryan Riley [:But then I started doing a typical market analysis and sales volumes and sales analysis, and I was getting in the numbers and seeing where things were at, and I was blown away. And the fact that they were selling what they were selling with no marketing, no branding, no website, I mean, literally, it was one of the worst sites I've ever seen. And it was selling. And I remember my wife was out of town. She was taking care of my mom because of a hip surgery. I called my wife and I said, I found my next gig. And my wife actually rolled her eyes at me, and I was, no, no, I'm serious. This is it. And she's like, okay, so what are they going to pay you? I'm like, nothing. She's like, what? Like, nothing. I was like, right now I'm just looking at it. And we got on the phone with Jay and Tod, and Tod introduced me to Jay for the first time, and they offered me a substantial equity in the company. And I told them, I said, guys, you're going to get a lot more out of me than you realize right now because that's who I am. I'm going to put everything in. And I said, yeah, let's do this. And I worked for the first year without a paycheck, right to your point where you didn't want to grind because you were just grinding there. I was grinding. I mean, I grinding. I was in my backyard coding at night, working through shopify, up all night long trying to get this done, answering customer support emails myself, learning the products, learning the language, watching videos, doing everything I could to grind on this new opportunity. And honestly, for the first year, I didn't have an income, but I was in a position from the other job that allowed me to do that. In fact, I remember walking into that other company and said, hey, I'm going to be helping a budy of mine with a supplement company. They're like, yeah, that's cool. You're totally fine. Go ahead and do that. When we need you, we'll call you and be a part of it. And so it was the right opportunity all coming together at the right time and having the courage. And I couldn't even say, dude, I don't even want to say that because I don't even think it was the courage to do something. I think I was so ready.
Dave Huffman [:You were ready.
Ryan Riley [:I was so ready. That I love about this. Bam, I'm doing this. I didn't think twice.
Dave Huffman [:This is why I love about this story, because I've had so many epiphanies from just watching how this played out between you two and then thinking about, okay, if I was given that same opportunity, would I have taken it? I wouldn't have, because through the grinding of building a music career and most of the time investing that money back into the band and barely paying myself anything, I wasn't in a position to grind on anything else. I would have just wore my marriage down. If you continuously chase opportunities and nothing really takes hold. So I was like in a position to just, I thought, just go into work every day and have good benefits and take something safe because you've already used your chance. Yeah. And you just didn't want to do it because you'd already done it well.
Spencer Matthews [:And I thought I had a better opportunity in front of me as well.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah, that too.
Spencer Matthews [:So I was comfortable. I wasn't ready. And I thought my other opportunity was better.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah. And I am just now, at 43, reentering a season where things have, like, in my life and in my family are in a position now where we're ready to go. We're ready for that now.
Ryan Riley [:Well, think about it.
Dave Huffman [:I was 45 yeah.
Ryan Riley [:When that happened, right? And so it's interesting if you look through your timeline and life, I was ready.
Dave Huffman [:I was so ready.
Ryan Riley [:And not only that, but I had so much confidence in myself because I was preparing for this, that, dude, I could freaking do anything and I took it. And that's how, Spence, you and I met. You were the three PL and we were working through problems and challenges and it got to the point where I think your company lost an entire pallet of ours. Right. And it got to the point where I was like, all right, we're going to take this internally. If these are our products, and if we want to have the type of care and relationship with our customers, we're going to do this internally.
Spencer Matthews [:So I don't know if I ever told you this, but the first day I met you, you came in and we sat down. We had a conversation. You toured the warehouse and stuff. There's one thing you said, um, that was a trigger to me. Like, these guys won't last here long. And the words you said were, I believe in controlling our own destiny. I was like, These guys are gone before we had any of those challenges. And then, yeah, it was a month or so later, and then I was helping you guys transition out to be able to be set up to do it yourself. But, yeah, if it wasn't through some of those experiences and then later through that opportunity not actually working out for me six, eight months later, I was then evaluating, okay, what is my next opportunity? And luckily, Microbe was still at play, and that's when I jumped in.
Ryan Riley [:Well, and it was interesting because I remember the conversation. We just got our office space on Baltic, and it was this little tiny office with a balcony that know, a loft overlooking a warehouse space, and it was tiny. And I was like, we're going to run right now. And Spencer's like, dude, we can do this. Over the course of I'm like, Nope, I'm gonna come get product. We're gonna be up and running on Monday. It was Friday. We're gonna be up and money on run. Up and running on Monday.
Spencer Matthews [:Dude, I'm not trying to keep you as a like, let me just buy you, like, a few days. You don't need to do this to.
Ryan Riley [:Like and I'm like, Nope, we're doing it. We're all in. And I remember I rented a truck, and we went over, picked up the pallets, and we were up and running, shipping on Monday. And we had the conversation, and I remember telling you, hey, Spence, look, this isn't the end of our really, I highly appreciate who you are as an individual and how you're handling this. We'll work again together. There'll be another time we'll have the opportunity to work.
Dave Huffman [:Me let's transition to me real quick, because I love the other thing I've really picked up from working with you guys is things will happen when they're supposed to or when the time is right. And going back to timing, ryan and I met before you guys did, before you and him met. And we were doing some work with an agency. I was there full time. I think you were partnering with them on some know I just wasn't a big fan of I don't know how we would conduct business and the clients that we had. And every time Ryan would walk in the room, I would just get like, it would make me yeah, that's what we need to do. So every time he opened his mouth, I'd be like, that's what we need to do. And I was just so excited to work with him. And then I eventually went off and worked with another client and scaled that business. But I don't remember the last time I saw you. But there was a moment in time where I didn't see you again for.
Ryan Riley [:Years, three years or so. I remember the one conversation that I was like, dude, this dude's rad. And we got out of that meeting, we walked down and you're at your desk and we started talking about music.
Dave Huffman [:Oh, yeah.
Ryan Riley [:And I don't know what it is about music, man, but anytime somebody's like all of a sudden there's a bond, a connection, because you talked about how you play guitar, I'm like, Dude, I play bass. And it was like, all this yeah, we should jam. And there was that moment in time about music, and it was just really good. I remember leaving that and I was like, Dude, he's cool. I was like, I'd love to work with him.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah. And I just remember you being super dynamic and knowing a lot more. Like, I remember sitting in a meeting, we were talking about a website redesign, and not only you were giving really valuable input on the design, but on the development of it. And sometimes I'll call Ryan, like, the original growth hacker because you know a lot about marketing and technology and how to work the two together. But fast forward to when you and met. And I was like, Tell me about the team. He's like, we got the CEO. He's really dynamic.
Spencer Matthews [:He's got a fat guys baby.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah, we had lunch of fat guys. First time I ever met Spencer, we hugged. And it was just something about that. Like, it just felt really familiar. And he was describing this person and I went, that sounds like Ryan Riley.
Spencer Matthews [:But you didn't say that out loud.
Dave Huffman [:No, it was just yeah. And then sure enough, there he was. And I didn't think here's the thing. When I was offered the position to come on board, I wasn't sure I was ready to grind. And I knew for a fact my wife was going through some health problems. I thought I needed good benefits. There were some limiting beliefs that I needed to get rid of. And microbe. I don't know where all this and what we're going to do next. I mean, we're working on some things, but that has opened up my world and got me out of this rut that I will forever be grateful for. And even there were challenges. When I jumped in and finally jumped in, I remember we didn't really have benefits. We had kind of like a health reimbursement thing. And my first month, it double or triple withdrew from my account and threw us into the negative. And my wife called me and was, like, freaking out, and I was freaking out, and Ryan fixed it immediately. But it was like one of those moments where I was like, oh, my.
Ryan Riley [:God, this is exactly what I thought was going to happen.
Dave Huffman [:But there were even challenges there, and just being able to see it through, I'm just forever grateful for that stuff. I love all the conversation about recognizing opportunity, but timing and the courage of it all.
Spencer Matthews [:And when you're in those moments, you don't recognize the path that they're necessarily going to put you on all the time. Sometimes you're ready and you're waiting for five years. Sometimes you're not.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Spencer Matthews [:And it's hindsight as you look at those moments of decision, moments of choice, you're like, oh, that was actually really pivotal in my trajectory. So we kind of took people like where we were, what brought us together.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Spencer Matthews [:We're in micro formulas.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah. But you got to tell your story because there's parts of your story that I don't know, because when you left the Three PL, it wasn't a good split.
Dave Huffman [:No. Right.
Ryan Riley [:And you were looking for yeah. You were fired, basically.
Spencer Matthews [:And I was fired. And the day I was let go, went out to my car, and my car wouldn't start. So I sat in the parking lot for 20 minutes for my wife to come with our two little kids. We had just had a son four months prior, second child. We just bought a house. We just had a second child. I was let go. My car wouldn't start. My wife had to come pick me up as not a good day.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Spencer Matthews [:I remember going home. I was crying. I remember going home and like, oh, man, what happened? And I was crying. And my daughter, she's three, and she could barely talk. She could say some things. And she came to give me a hug. I picked her up. I held her, and she put her hands on my cheeks and her forehead against my forehead, and she said, daddy, it's going to be okay. Fucking three year old dude, like and I melted.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Spencer Matthews [:That's the beauty of children or of somebody that loves you unconditionally. Doesn't matter where you work, doesn't matter how much money you make. Doesn't matter anything except that you just show up.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Spencer Matthews [:And you extend love back.
Ryan Riley [:And I heard that you got let go. And I was looking for somebody to help. I got to the point where I'm grinding. I think one of the things, one of my strengths is knowing my limitations.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Ryan Riley [:And we got to the point where I was like, I need help. And I heard that you got let go. And I was like, yeah, we're going to get Spencer. And I called you. I said come in. Let's talk.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Ryan Riley [:And that conversation led to choices and decisions you made. And I remember when you told me yes. I called Tod. I was like, we got Spencer. And I was like super excited because I knew that you were going to be a big part of this moving forward.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Spencer Matthews [:And I was in a season of like, I want to be very conscious about the next thing that I'm stepping into and clear about kind of what I wanted. And I remember talking a little bit about that with you. A moment of self awareness of where do I see myself excelling within an organization, within a company, within a small business. And being clear about that and communicating like, this is what I need, this is how I operate, this is what I like. And Ryan's like, great, but it was that period of reflection that allowed me to be able to have that conversation and set myself up for success at Microform.
Dave Huffman [:Well, and he's the perfect person for that because he gives you space to operate. What changed? Is it because you weren't going to do it alone? Because Ryan.
Spencer Matthews [:Was the the company also had seen a level of success it hadn't seen before. The first time I was entertaining it, it was still relatively new, mid six figures. It was less than six months old. It launched in September and I was having conversations in January. It was brand, brand new. There was no employees in the company. I was going to be the very first one.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Spencer Matthews [:I didn't know enough about the product either to know like, is this really going to hit or is it going to be a dud? Am I going to be grinding for how many years? It was so unknown.
Dave Huffman [:Right.
Spencer Matthews [:And then you layer in everything else I already talked about. But by October, by a full year round, it had already done seven figures and was on pace to do more. There was Ryan in place, there was a team of support specialists. There was at least a handful of people involved.
Ryan Riley [:Right. I remember hiring our first. So my son Braden, who's sitting here behind cameras running the show for us, my son Braden, I would pull him out of bed. I'm like, you're doing was always it was just me, Christina, my wife Christina, and Braden. And I remember when we went in that Baltic space, Braden's like, you need to hire Branson and you need to hire Connor Cook. You need to hire Branson and Connor Cook. And I was like, bring him in. And I remember Connor Cook walked in and that dude radiated something to me. He was so strong that I'm like just in the conversation, I was like, okay, can you start tomorrow? And he was looking around this space. Dude, we had a cardboard table with a computer on it for customer support. There was nothing. And I was selling a vision.
Dave Huffman [:Yeah.
Ryan Riley [:And I was selling a vision of where I saw this going and what I had an opportunity and he was like, Dude, you are high Craig. He told me that afterwards. He's like, but I sold it. I sold it. And I believe I had to sell that vision to everybody we hired for the first couple of years. I sold you, I sold you. I mean, you turned me down three times.
Spencer Matthews [:But there was also, like, as you sell yourself, I had now worked a year in a three PO. I had a lot of experience, and Micro was doing fulfillment in house, so I could add a lot of value there. I had spent six, seven years prior in marketing positions and roles. And so there's a quote by Winston Churchill called the man's finest hour. And I'll butcher the quote. I don't know it perfectly, but basically goes like, there comes a moment in time where your backs against the wall and you'll be forced to make a choice. And how disappointing will it be if a man is not prepared to say yes and answer the call to what could be that person's finest hour? And my finest hour wasn't saying yes to Microbe the first time it was presented to me. But later down the road, I recognized the sum of my life experience now added up in a point where anything and everything I did at Microformulas, I could add massive value in a big way that would also then return to me and not just the company.
Dave Huffman [:I love it. Yeah. I was in a position in my life where selling the vision to me actually turned me off because I had been so vision oriented in my life and chased vision and dreams that I just thought it was all bullshit. So I actually went into my head in that moment and the reason why I kept turning down, because I didn't see it yet. And then I finally had gotten an offer from somebody else, and as part of it, it was funny. As part of that, the conversations of that offer, he taught me a framework that I then went on that I used to eventually turn him down, come to Microbe, and then sell to the team that I would eventually recruit. And it was like a quadrant of when you're looking at any opportunity, the opportunity matrix, the opportunity matrix, you look at growth, impact, salary and stability. What's the growth for me personally and professionally? What's the impact I can have in the organization and in the world at large? Can they pay me what I need? And is it stable not just in benefits, but in just the company in general? And there's no wrong answers. It's whatever season you need to be in. So, like, before I came to Microbe, I was in a season of salary and stability. I needed good benefits. I needed a job I could work at for as long as I needed to work at, and needed to make enough money to pay my bills and save a little bit. I had put growth and impact on the back burners for myself. And then you came back into my life and then him. And then as I started, I was running your ads. I was like, man, this has momentum. There's growth here for me. And look at these reviews and look at these testimonials. We're making an impact on the world. The salary was less in my mind. There was actually no stability at the time. Little did I know it would provide me with more stability than I really needed. I remember putting together this big pros and cons list and then eventually said.
Ryan Riley [:Yeah, look, just kind of wrapping this up. I'll just end by saying thanks.
Spencer Matthews [:It's been a journey.
Ryan Riley [:It's been fun, dude, thanks for trusting. Thanks for being a part of it. Thanks for the work, the grind, the effort, because, honestly, guys, there were a lot of people involved. But you guys were my rock, and I did everything I could to keep you guys motivated and happy. And there and there's little moments that occurred that were special. That were special.
Spencer Matthews [:Yeah, absolutely.
Ryan Riley [:And there were little things. I remember walking into your office with that guitar.
Dave Huffman [:Dude, I was on a call.
Ryan Riley [:We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that one later. But there was those moments, and I remember taking you for a drive and saying, let's go do this. And there were those moments that it just was, like, the opportunity for me.
Dave Huffman [:To say thank you.
Ryan Riley [:And that's why this is so beautiful. So thanks.
Dave Huffman [:No, man, thank you. And that's a great place to end, but you're really good at that. You're good at raising belief. You're good at affirming people. And, yeah, it's been just a high point. Not just my career, but my life. So it's been great.
Ryan Riley [:That's a wrap, you dam.
